IIPM Prof Rajita Chaudhuri's Snaps
Karnataka Lokayukta Santosh Hegde has been in the news for his principled stand against corruption in public life. He stepped down from his post and then took back the resignation following an appeal by veteran BJP leader LK advani. BUT in the course of an hourlong chat with TSI's Satish Chapparike and K Divyadarshini, Justice Hegde made no bones about his feelings.
Do you see this is as a happy ending to an unnecessary imbroglio?
For me it was not unnecessary. It may have been unnecessary for the government. Outwardly, they put up a bold front, saying they would not talk to me. One of the ministers said sarcastically, “He is too big a man and who am I to ask him to take back his resignation?” The day I resigned the reaction was interesting. Everybody said, “He is an honest man and works very hard.” The next day the tenor changed and they started saying “I don’t know why he suddenly resigned.” By day three they started attacking me directly.
Do you mean the ministers and the CM?
Yes, the ministers. The CM didn’t say anything. His attitude was “if he is going let him go”. The ministers obviously reflected the views of the CM or the party. Ramachandre Gowda (minister for medical education) said: “From where will we give him power? He is asking for powers that even the government doesn't have. Should we give him everything that he asks for?” Mr BN Bache Gowda (minister for labour) was equally aggressive. They were going too far, so I hit back. I usually do not hit below the belt, but I realised that in this scenario offence was the best form of defence. It was a planned attack on me. Even VS Acharya (home minister) said I'd been given everything I sought and there was no end to my demands.
You eventually decided to withdraw your resignation. What did Mr Advani tell you?
Advaniji did not speak to me for these ten days. At the end he told me, “Santosh, if you are ready to listen to me, I am ready to go to the press and make a public appeal and also ask the government of Karnataka to consider your demands. But you should not go back.”
BJP used Advani as a weapon...
Yes, I agree.
Advaniji’s party is ruling the state, so would you ask him to help you curb corruption in the state?
I need not ask because Advaniji has understood it. And I am sure he knows about the ministers who are involved in mining and other scams. I told Advaniji that if you are asking me to withdraw my resignation I will do it but they must assure me that they will give me the power. He said he will see to it. Shouldn't you have set a deadline for your demands to be met?
I do not think state leaders have approached Advaniji. As far as I know Advaniji is not a person who will make use of me. Because of Advaniji and Gadkari, the CM came to my house. It was very evident that he came because he was asked to and he was not very happy. I didn’t set a deadline because of two issues: I want suo moto power and I want authority to investigate higher officers and political leaders without complaints.
Can't you make use of Advaniji to crack down on scams?
Yes I can. I know what is happening in the flood-affected areas and I have submitted a report about the corruption that is happening in the name of rehabilitation work. I know not a single house has been built.
But didn't Advani use you to save his government’s face?
Yes I think so. Even today (July 4, 2010) Advaniji called me to thank me for accepting his advice. I told him unless it is necessary I won’t bother you but if I have anything I will approach Mr Gadkari. He has assured me that he will see to it that my demands are considered. If he doesn’t listen to me, I will approach Advaniji.
Do you think Advani will agree to act if you approach him?
Yes, he has got a moral obligation to do that and he will do that. He asked me to withdraw my resignation. I have no doubt that he wants me to continue in a proper and effective manner. I do not think he wants me to become a tool in the hands of the BJP government.
Do you think the Karnataka government will change its mindset?
Well, I don’t know whether they will change or not. Wherever I find that they have committed a mistake I will not spare them. The war will certainly continue. I have withdrawn my resignation for a reason. I am not working for drawing salary and the perks of office. I'll not continue for a day if my conscience does not let me. I will expose everything and go.
Everyone knows what is happening in Bellary and who all are behind it...
Yes there is illegal mining in Bellary. There is a big political lobby behind it. But we have to have definite material to prove whether it is purely political or something done by mining groups in Bellary. In your four-year stint as Lokayukta you must have learned many lessons. But this particular incident seems to have taught you much more than what you learned earlier. Has it toughened you?
Yes, of course. I will utilise what is left of my tenure , which is technically about 12 months, to expose administrative malpractices and corruption to the extent possible. I have not spared anybody or I have not sought any help from anybody, even Mr Advaniji. I respect him for many other reasons. It was he who approached me, I didn’t approach him.
What will you do if your demands are not met in the coming months?
I will quit without raising any hue and cry. I will go quietly, won't let even the media get wind of my move. I was not very happy with the way political parties took advantage of my departure. But I was really, really surprised by the public opinion and the media reaction not only in the state but all across the nation.
So you have to fight with the same people and a ‘father figure’...
Yes, if nothing happens I will approach him and tell him what has been happening and I will quit. But before that I will prepare a detailed report on corruption. Huge fraud is happening in mining, there are frauds in drug purchase, and there is a huge fraud in government land being given in grant to various powerful people. But there are powerful people involved in it and they want to stop any investigation. I can point out many other areas. For example, take flood relief. I am inquiring into it. But if I can’t do anything why should I be in power?
So you believe that politics is a mafia operation?
Yes it is. Today you can call it a business too. One spends crores to get into power. Invest money and get it back!
How can we curb this trend?
What you allowed to grow in 60 years cannot be cleaned in six years. But taking into consideration the disaster that may fall upon this country I think we have to get the people to understand what we are really going through and where the 85 paise out of 1 rupee which is meant to be given to the people go.
What will be your immediate steps at this point?
I will continue as the Lokayukta, I have a lot of ongoing inquiries on my hands against individuals and against the system. I have to first complete all those investigations. And if the government gives me suo moto power, I will certainly go after all those powerful people whom I presume to be corrupt.
Karnataka Lokayukta Santosh Hegde has been in the news for his principled stand against corruption in public life. He stepped down from his post and then took back the resignation following an appeal by veteran BJP leader LK advani. BUT in the course of an hourlong chat with TSI's Satish Chapparike and K Divyadarshini, Justice Hegde made no bones about his feelings.
Do you see this is as a happy ending to an unnecessary imbroglio?
For me it was not unnecessary. It may have been unnecessary for the government. Outwardly, they put up a bold front, saying they would not talk to me. One of the ministers said sarcastically, “He is too big a man and who am I to ask him to take back his resignation?” The day I resigned the reaction was interesting. Everybody said, “He is an honest man and works very hard.” The next day the tenor changed and they started saying “I don’t know why he suddenly resigned.” By day three they started attacking me directly.
Do you mean the ministers and the CM?
Yes, the ministers. The CM didn’t say anything. His attitude was “if he is going let him go”. The ministers obviously reflected the views of the CM or the party. Ramachandre Gowda (minister for medical education) said: “From where will we give him power? He is asking for powers that even the government doesn't have. Should we give him everything that he asks for?” Mr BN Bache Gowda (minister for labour) was equally aggressive. They were going too far, so I hit back. I usually do not hit below the belt, but I realised that in this scenario offence was the best form of defence. It was a planned attack on me. Even VS Acharya (home minister) said I'd been given everything I sought and there was no end to my demands.
You eventually decided to withdraw your resignation. What did Mr Advani tell you?
Advaniji did not speak to me for these ten days. At the end he told me, “Santosh, if you are ready to listen to me, I am ready to go to the press and make a public appeal and also ask the government of Karnataka to consider your demands. But you should not go back.”
BJP used Advani as a weapon...
Yes, I agree.
Advaniji’s party is ruling the state, so would you ask him to help you curb corruption in the state?
I need not ask because Advaniji has understood it. And I am sure he knows about the ministers who are involved in mining and other scams. I told Advaniji that if you are asking me to withdraw my resignation I will do it but they must assure me that they will give me the power. He said he will see to it. Shouldn't you have set a deadline for your demands to be met?
I do not think state leaders have approached Advaniji. As far as I know Advaniji is not a person who will make use of me. Because of Advaniji and Gadkari, the CM came to my house. It was very evident that he came because he was asked to and he was not very happy. I didn’t set a deadline because of two issues: I want suo moto power and I want authority to investigate higher officers and political leaders without complaints.
Can't you make use of Advaniji to crack down on scams?
Yes I can. I know what is happening in the flood-affected areas and I have submitted a report about the corruption that is happening in the name of rehabilitation work. I know not a single house has been built.
But didn't Advani use you to save his government’s face?
Yes I think so. Even today (July 4, 2010) Advaniji called me to thank me for accepting his advice. I told him unless it is necessary I won’t bother you but if I have anything I will approach Mr Gadkari. He has assured me that he will see to it that my demands are considered. If he doesn’t listen to me, I will approach Advaniji.
Do you think Advani will agree to act if you approach him?
Yes, he has got a moral obligation to do that and he will do that. He asked me to withdraw my resignation. I have no doubt that he wants me to continue in a proper and effective manner. I do not think he wants me to become a tool in the hands of the BJP government.
Do you think the Karnataka government will change its mindset?
Well, I don’t know whether they will change or not. Wherever I find that they have committed a mistake I will not spare them. The war will certainly continue. I have withdrawn my resignation for a reason. I am not working for drawing salary and the perks of office. I'll not continue for a day if my conscience does not let me. I will expose everything and go.
Everyone knows what is happening in Bellary and who all are behind it...
Yes there is illegal mining in Bellary. There is a big political lobby behind it. But we have to have definite material to prove whether it is purely political or something done by mining groups in Bellary. In your four-year stint as Lokayukta you must have learned many lessons. But this particular incident seems to have taught you much more than what you learned earlier. Has it toughened you?
Yes, of course. I will utilise what is left of my tenure , which is technically about 12 months, to expose administrative malpractices and corruption to the extent possible. I have not spared anybody or I have not sought any help from anybody, even Mr Advaniji. I respect him for many other reasons. It was he who approached me, I didn’t approach him.
What will you do if your demands are not met in the coming months?
I will quit without raising any hue and cry. I will go quietly, won't let even the media get wind of my move. I was not very happy with the way political parties took advantage of my departure. But I was really, really surprised by the public opinion and the media reaction not only in the state but all across the nation.
So you have to fight with the same people and a ‘father figure’...
Yes, if nothing happens I will approach him and tell him what has been happening and I will quit. But before that I will prepare a detailed report on corruption. Huge fraud is happening in mining, there are frauds in drug purchase, and there is a huge fraud in government land being given in grant to various powerful people. But there are powerful people involved in it and they want to stop any investigation. I can point out many other areas. For example, take flood relief. I am inquiring into it. But if I can’t do anything why should I be in power?
So you believe that politics is a mafia operation?
Yes it is. Today you can call it a business too. One spends crores to get into power. Invest money and get it back!
How can we curb this trend?
What you allowed to grow in 60 years cannot be cleaned in six years. But taking into consideration the disaster that may fall upon this country I think we have to get the people to understand what we are really going through and where the 85 paise out of 1 rupee which is meant to be given to the people go.
What will be your immediate steps at this point?
I will continue as the Lokayukta, I have a lot of ongoing inquiries on my hands against individuals and against the system. I have to first complete all those investigations. And if the government gives me suo moto power, I will certainly go after all those powerful people whom I presume to be corrupt.
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